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Manny Pacquiao Defies Father Time, Whips Thurman

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  • Manny Pacquiao Defies Father Time, Whips Thurman

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    By David A. Avila

    LAS VEGAS-Father time, hold on.

    Manny Pacquiao knocked down Keith Thurman with his electrifying speed in the first round then managed to keep the lead and defeat Keith Thurman by split decision and retain the WBA welterweight world title Saturday. It was one exciting firefight.

    Pacquiao showed the young guns he still has bullets left in the chamber.

    The pride of the Philippines, Pacquiao (62-7-2, 39 KOs) also showed he still has star attraction and startling speed in front of the crowd of 14,356 at the MGM Grand. And he still has enough in the gas tank to defeat a young powerhouse like 30-year-old Thurman.

    But it was razor close.

    Pacman jumped to the lead in the first round with a sizzling combination capped by a lightning right hook that floored a surprised Thurman. The Florida fighter smiled while getting up.

    “He caught me when I was moving back,” said Thurman. “After that knockdown it was just a numbers game.”

    For the first five rounds Pacquiao bedazzled Thurman and the fans with his jitterbug style that has confused dozens of opponents in more than 20 years as a professional. But once he slowed down, Thurman began connecting and connecting.

    Thurman had never tasted defeat and used a body attack to slow down the rushes by Pacquiao. It proved effective and from rounds six through nine the taller Thurman was connecting on a slower moving Pacquiao.

    Just when it looked like Thurman was about to take over with body shots and rights in the 10th round, Pacquiao stopped the onslaught and unleashed a multiple-punch rally including a powerful left to the body that buckled Thurman who was visibly pained by the body blow. Somehow he hung on as Pacquiao unfurled a barrage of blows in search of the killing blow he once knew so well. Thurman survived.

    “I felt like I was grabbing some momentum back. I felt like I needed to possibly get a knockdown,” Thurman said. “But definitely I was obviously hurt in that round. I tried to push him to his limit and he came up on top.”

    Pacquiao was able to carry over the momentum to the 11th round by targeting Thurman’s weakened body. But at 30 years old the Floridians recovery time was quick and he was able to stave off Pacquiao’s attacks with well-placed right counters.

    In the final round Thurman kept pressure on the shorter Pacquiao who seemed a little tired and careful about getting caught with Thurman’s sharp right counters. The fight ended without serious further altercations.

    Judge Glenn Feldman scored it 114-113 for Thurman while judges Dave Moretti and Tim Cheatham tabbed it 115-112 for Pacquiao who retains the WBA welterweight title by split decision.

    Once again the record-making eight-division world champion Pacquiao defied the ageing process with a victory over another younger world champion. If naysayers felt retirement was overdue he proved once again that he is one of the wonders of prizefighting.

    “He’s a good fighter, he’s strong,” said Pacquiao. “We did it for the fans. I’m sure they were happy tonight. Even though it was close he’s not an easy opponent, he’s strong.”

    Thurman was gracious in defeat.

    “I knew it was close,” said Thurman. “This is a beautiful night for boxing. Manny Pacquiao is a great, great champion. I wish I had a little bit more as he was getting tired, but it was a great night for boxing.”

    “This guy is a fighter,” said Pacquiao. “I think I can rank this like a (Antonio) Margarito fight, an Oscar De La Hoya fight, a Juan Manuel Marquez fight and Marco Antonio Barrera fight. You saw what we did in the ring, it’s the first time I encountered an opponent like Keith Thurman. Keith hits like Margarito. I think because he was too big for me and heavy handed.”

    Caleb Plant

    IBF super middleweight titlist Caleb Plant had predicted Mike Lee was not a true challenge and then proved it with three rounds of domination to win by technical knockout in the third round.

    Plant floored a hyper Lee in the first round with a left hook but the Chicago fighter shook it off. The second round was better for Lee who managed to land some blows against the speedy Plant but still lost the round. Worse things were in store for Lee.

    Las Vegas-based Plant opened the third round with two quick jabs and rifled a right cross missile that dropped Lee with a thud. The former Notre Dame football player got up enthusiastically ready for more and Plant obliged with a check left hook and down went Lee again. Luckily for Lee, referee Robert Byrd missed the knockdown and called it a slip. Lee couldn’t get up right away but managed to gather himself. When the fight resumed Plant zipped a right cross and down went Lee hard. Referee Byrd stopped the fight without a count though Lee angrily disagreed with the stoppage.

    Plant was deemed the winner by technical knockout at 1:29 of the third round to retain the IBF super middleweight world title. It was his first title defense since winning it earlier this year in Los Angeles against Jose Uzcategui.

    “I’ve been telling you it’s not going 12,” said Plant. “I take my hat off to Mike, it takes a true man to go in the ring.”

    The Tennessee native said he’s ready for anyone whether it’s a super middleweight or light heavyweight.

    “I ain’t hard to get ahold of, just come to Las Vegas,” said Plant.

    Nery KOs Payano

    In a tough battle between southpaw sluggers for the WBC Silver bantamweight title Mexico’s Luis Nery (30-0, 24 KOs) finally solved Dominican’s Jose Carlos Payano (21-3, 9 KOs) by directing his big blows to the body to win by knockout in the ninth round. It was Nery’s 11th consecutive knockout win.

    “He had a complicated style but I adapted by the sixth round and went to the body and focused on that,” said Nery who lives and trains in Tijuana, Mexico.

    After back and forth blows for nine rounds Nery caught Payano with a crackling left to the body and down went Payano for more than five minutes. The Dominican was counted out by referee Vic Drakulich at 1:43 of the ninth round.

    Ugas wins Ugly

    If not for a point deducted Cuba’s Yordenis Ugas (24-4, 11 KOs) would have won every round over Texas fighter Omar Figueroa (28-1-1, 19 KOs) but he had to settle for winning by unanimous decision in winning the eliminator for the WBC welterweight title.

    It was an ugly fight.

    The first round looked good for Ugas who nailed Figueroa with a wicked overhand right. Figueroa was saved from hitting the floor by the ropes and the referee wisely called it a knockdown. But after that, darkness and frustration set in as Figueroa hugged his way inside and Ugas showed he did not how to fight at close distance. Instead of fighting he held and held until referee Russell Mora took a point away in the fifth round.

    Figueroa’s charges inside were ineffective for 11 rounds as both were unable to allow a fight to break out. After 12 rounds all three judges scored it the same 119-107 for Ugas. It was Figueroa’s first loss as a pro.

    Lipinets

    Former super lightweight world titlist Sergey Lipinets faced last-minute replacement Javar Inson, a southpaw, and knocked out the Filipino fighter with a counter left hook in the second round. It was advice that his new trainer Joe Goossen had directed him to do.

    “(Joe Goossen) is an exceptional trainer. He just wanted me to make sure I block his punches with my elbows and just counter,” said Lipinets.

    During a exchange of blows Lipinets countered with a left hook that Inson did not see and was dropped for a knockdown. Referee Jay Nady looked at his eyes and stopped the fight at 57 seconds of the second round for a technical knockout win for Lipinets.

    “You never know what to expect because you train for one style and get another. He was looking for it. A great fighter executes what he expects,” said Goossen.

    Other Bouts

    Nigeria’s Efe Ajagba (11-0, 9 KOs) out-punched Turkey’s Ali Eren Demirezen (11-1,10 KOs) over 10 rounds to surprisingly win by unanimous decision instead of by knockout. Both heavyweights entered the ring with prodigious knockout records but neither was able to knock the other down. Two judges scored it 99-91 and a third 97-93 for Ajagba.

    Photo credit: Al Applerose

    Check out more boxing news on video at The Boxing Channel




  • #2
    Metaphor Headline: Leonard Whips Norris, Still Sweet

    Comment


    • #3
      Great accounts here. Thanks David. Oh yes, do I get my due? "I see PACQUIAO winning by MD. As soon as he buzzes Thurman, “One Time” will start running which is his wont. It will be a boring affair unless Thurman tires and Pac catches him."
      Last edited by Kid Blast; 07-21-2019, 07:36 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        MD was spot on, Ted. Have to give you your props. But have to dock you a few points for suggesting the fight might be boring. It certainly wasn't.

        It's funny how time is elastic. The Ugas-Figueroa fight and the Pacquaio-Thurman fight both went 47 minutes counting the minute rest between rounds. But Ugas-Figueroa lasted a lot longer than Pac-Thurman which went by in a heartbeat.

        The author Louis Golding once compared watching a very dull fight to standing on a train platform in a cold drizzle awaiting a late-arriving train.

        Perfect.

        Comment


        • Kid Blast
          Kid Blast commented
          Editing a comment
          Thank you.

      • #5
        In what I thought was a relatively easy fight to score, I was surprised by some of the scores I saw. I saw a few people had Thurman winning (Brian Campbell and Glenn Feldman) While I saw some as wide as 117-110. I can see 116-111 or 115-112. Anything outside of those I thought was a little strange.

        Probably just me.............

        Comment


        • Kid Blast
          Kid Blast commented
          Editing a comment
          No. Many feel the same way. Feldman had an off night.

      • #6
        Some of the scores were very favorable to Thurman.

        “Amazing” performance by Pacquaio for his age and the testing that was in place.


        All up, a good fight that (particularly if it leads to win over another prime/name fighter) might just go towards ensuring Pacquaio’s legacy equals, or perhaps even surpasses Floyd’s.



        Cheers,

        Storm.

         

        Comment


        • #7
          Originally posted by StormCentre View Post
          Some of the scores were very favorable to Thurman.

          “Amazing” performance by Pacquaio for his age and the testing that was in place.


          All up, a good fight that (particularly if it leads to win over another prime/name fighter) might just go towards ensuring Pacquaio’s legacy equals, or perhaps even surpasses Floyd’s.



          Cheers,

          Storm.

          I think it already has.

          Comment


          • #8
            to me it ranks up there with Duran's win over Iran Barkley ...gave me the same feeling lol ...just wish manny would retire now

            Comment


            • #9
              Originally posted by The Good Doctor View Post

              I think it already has.


              Yep, it’s a good win for Pacquaio.

              That’s for sure.



              But my bet is that history will still be kind to Floyd regardless of the naysayers, fans, fence-sitters, and/or Pacquaio.

              If not Mayweather’s elite skills, then - the fact that he easily blew Marquez out after a long layoff - the fact he easily beat Pacquaio (and Pacquaio came out with excuses after), and the fact he retired with an undefeated record almost guarantees that.



              If history has been kind to Rocky Marciano and/or SRL (and it has), then it will be kind to Floyd too.

              Leonard (whom I am a big fan of) too was somewhat selective (as Floyd is claimed to be) and one could also criticize some of Rocky’s (whom I am a big fan of also) opponents as well.



              But Marciano’s unbeaten record is still - to this day - often pointed to when people wheel him out as one of the best all time.

              Furthermore, Ray Leonard’s fast hands/feet and charismatic elusive/style combined with his ability to successfully attack and win (at all levels of competition) when required, ensures he will;
              .
              Not only, remain to be seen as an all time great too.

              But also, enjoy a reserved place that is usually historically positioned above Hagler, despite how one could easily debate the merits of a role reversal.


              And therein lies (some of) the analogous/historical significance between Floyd and Pacquaio, Leonard and Hagler, and the great Rocky Marciano.



              So, to some extent this is why my bet is that history will be kind to Floyd (including within the context of Pacquaio) regardless of Pacquaio’s current achievement.

              And a part of the reason for that is because, often when revisionists theories are applied to boxing, the metrics of a fighter retiring undefeated (even if they didn’t completely clean house in every single title holding instance) and beating your main nemesis-rival really counts for something.



              History has shown that boxing historians love those 2 facts and they place a lot of value in them.



              Furthermore, the argument (including, those that ignore all Pacquaio himself did to sabotage the Floyd V Pacquaio fight when it was 1st a possibility) that Pacquaio wasn’t in his prime when Floyd fought him (whilst nice and possibly holding some water) only increases in questionability the more we accept/believe that Manny’s win over Thurman this last weekend was legitimate.

              Pacquaio was surely not less of a boxer when he fought and loss to Floyd - than he was last weekend when he beat Thurman.



              And, whilst Manny may have been somewhat less agile/energetic last weekend than he was 10 years ago - the fact remains that Pacquaio still looked pretty good against Thurman; whom himself was/is not a truly prime/proven champion welterweight commodity when Pacquaio fought him.

              As the closest approximation we seem to have to that position surely/currently goes to Spence.



              I'm not discrediting Pacquaio’s weekend win; as it was as remarkable.

              Perhaps as remarkable as (it has been pointed out to me by others) the reliance upon urine testing only after the fight.

              Still, Pacquaio did to Thurman what other fighters much younger, including Garcia and Porter, have not been able to do.



              Leonard (whom I don’t believe was more skilled than {the Pretty Boy version of} Mayweather) was, perhaps more liked than Floyd and since there wasn’t the prevalence of electronic/social media back then it was not as easy for the masses to understand when/how SRL may have taken some easy fights.

              But (like Floyd) he did.



              Yes, Floyd was selective at times.

              But he also had a lot of good/tough and spectacular fights; Castillo, Corrales, Hatton, DeLaHoya, Augustus, Ndou, Chavez, Alvarez, Cotto.



              Furthermore, Pacquaio (whom I like; and concede has also been in some spectacular fights) also had his own way of finding advantages too.

              It’s just that Pacquaio achieved his advantages in other, perhaps more obscure, ways.



              Furthermore, Pacquaio did so at a time when;
              .
              Not only, there may have not been as much focus on certain nefarious and/or advantageous seeking aspects of the sport.

              But also, Pacquaio enjoyed the management/protection (not necessarily protection from opponents) that TR afforded him. Arum is very, very, savvy.




              When it is all said/done the fact that - when comparing Pacquaio and Floyd with a historical and/or revisionists mindset - Floyd easily beat Pacquaio, Pacquaio didn’t take the loss well and came out with excuse after excuse, Floyd retired undefeated, and then Floyd came back out of retirement again and beat MMA and/or the UFC’s (where the MMA and/or the UFC represent boxing’s greatest sporting/business threat to date) biggest draw . . .

              Means that (irrespective of how Conner was not a formidably elite boxing challenge for Floyd and/or how Mayeather utterly dominated the same guy that iced Manny) Floyd will almost always - particularly from a historian’s perspective - be considered above Pacquaio.



              That is, unless . .

              Pacquaio beats Floyd in a 2nd fight and/or he fights/beats one of the current young/prime welterweights (like Spence).



              None of this means I personally think;
              .
              A) Floyd is better or less than Pacquaio.


              B) The official rank/rating of McGregor (as a boxer) and how much less it was than Floyd’s when they fought, is the sole reason why the aforementioned McGregor V Mayweather fight has the above-mentioned historical significance.



              It’s just a post/comment on how I think history will view Floyd; including within the context of Pacquaio and his recent win of Thurman.

              In my opinion Floyd’s skills and also some of his achievements are sometimes overlooked and/or unappreciated, including for reasons that relate to his personal actions.



              But, Floyd - particularly as “Pretty Boy” - was easily more skilled than Pacquaio, and also Loma.

              And, yes I know there are some out there that don’t share that view (and/or like to interpret it as me claiming Loma is not talented) but to them I say (as I have for the past decade on this site and that from which it grew); show me the video evidence of Loma and/or anyone pulling off the moves Floyd did as Pretty Boy.



              Despite all the remarkable titles/weights Pacquaio has been successful in, his skills are not a patch on Floyd’s; when he was “Pretty Boy”.

              And, (just as they have for Marciano and others) these considerations will matter to credible boxing historians whom know their stuff.



              Furthermore, as stated above, Pacquaio has been knocked out cold by a guy (Marquez) that Floyd easily beat in his 1st comeback fight; albeit with a weight advantage.

              Floyd would have beat Marquez without the weight advantage.



              Furthermore, any argument that seeks to discredit Floyd’s win over Marquez as a means to elevate Pacquaio without also applying the same scrutiny/logic to how Pacquaio achieved some of his most notable wins (including those over Marquez) is - in my humble opinion - an argument that is doomed to fail right from the start.



              If present day and/or future reviews of history is not interested in how Pacquaio gained advantages (including with Cotto), my bet that future historians will not care too much that Floyd outweighed Marquez and/or (unlike Pacquaio) fought Cotto at his natural weight either.

              Not many people are walking around talking about the average age of some of Marciano’s opponents; and I suspect the reason for that is, because in hindsight all that really matters is that he successfully entertained and remained unbeaten in a division that was tough and the heaviest.



              As such, (notwithstanding both, the fact I think Pacquaio is probably one of the greatest fighters ever to live, and also my above caveats including Pacquaio beating Spence and/or Floyd in a rematch) I think history will almost always see Floyd;
              .
              A) Ahead of Pacquaio.


              B) As the cocky/brash guy that; (i) retired undefeated, (ii) had impeccable and almost unmatched skills, (iii) easily beat Pacquaio, and (iv) played with and utterly dominated the same boxer (Marquez) that not only, knocked Pacquaio out cold - but also, gave (a possibly juiced up) Pacquaio absolute hell over a wonderfully entertaining trilogy spanning several years.




              Cheers,

              Storm.

               

              Comment


              • #10
                Originally posted by StormCentre View Post



                Yep, it’s a good win for Pacquaio.

                That’s for sure.



                But my bet is that history will still be kind to Floyd regardless of the naysayers, fans, fence-sitters, and/or Pacquaio.

                If not Mayweather’s elite skills, then - the fact that he easily blew Marquez out after a long layoff - the fact he easily beat Pacquaio (and Pacquaio came out with excuses after), and the fact he retired with an undefeated record almost guarantees that.



                If history has been kind to Rocky Marciano and/or SRL (and it has), then it will be kind to Floyd too.

                Leonard (whom I am a big fan of) too was somewhat selective (as Floyd is claimed to be) and one could also criticize some of Rocky’s (whom I am a big fan of also) opponents as well.



                But Marciano’s unbeaten record is still - to this day - often pointed to when people wheel him out as one of the best all time.

                Furthermore, Ray Leonard’s fast hands/feet and charismatic elusive/style combined with his ability to successfully attack and win (at all levels of competition) when required, ensures he will;
                .
                Not only, remain to be seen as an all time great too.

                But also, enjoy a reserved place that is usually historically positioned above Hagler, despite how one could easily debate the merits of a role reversal.



                And therein lies (some of) the analogous/historical significance between Floyd and Pacquaio, Leonard and Hagler, and the great Rocky Marciano.



                So, to some extent this is why my bet is that history will be kind to Floyd (including within the context of Pacquaio) regardless of Pacquaio’s current achievement.

                And a part of the reason for that is because, often when revisionists theories are applied to boxing, the metrics of a fighter retiring undefeated (even if they didn’t completely clean house in every single title holding instance) and beating your main nemesis-rival really counts for something.



                History has shown that boxing historians love those 2 facts and they place a lot of value in them.



                Furthermore, the argument (including, those that ignore all Pacquaio himself did to sabotage the Floyd V Pacquaio fight when it was 1st a possibility) that Pacquaio wasn’t in his prime when Floyd fought him (whilst nice and possibly holding some water) only increases in questionability the more we accept/believe that Manny’s win over Thurman this last weekend was legitimate.

                Pacquaio was surely not less of a boxer when he fought and loss to Floyd - than he was last weekend when he beat Thurman.



                And, whilst Manny may have been somewhat less agile/energetic last weekend than he was 10 years ago - the fact remains that Pacquaio still looked pretty good against Thurman; whom himself was/is not a truly prime/proven champion welterweight commodity when Pacquaio fought him.

                As the closest approximation we seem to have to that position surely/currently goes to Spence.



                I'm not discrediting Pacquaio’s weekend win; as it was as remarkable.

                Perhaps as remarkable as (it has been pointed out to me by others) the reliance upon urine testing only after the fight.

                Still, Pacquaio did to Thurman what other fighters much younger, including Garcia and Porter, have not been able to do.



                Leonard (whom I don’t believe was more skilled than {the Pretty Boy version of} Mayweather) was, perhaps more liked than Floyd and since there wasn’t the prevalence of electronic/social media back then it was not as easy for the masses to understand when/how SRL may have taken some easy fights.

                But (like Floyd) he did.



                Yes, Floyd was selective at times.

                But he also had a lot of good/tough and spectacular fights; Castillo, Corrales, Hatton, DeLaHoya, Augustus, Ndou, Chavez, Alvarez, Cotto.



                Furthermore, Pacquaio (whom I like; and concede has also been in some spectacular fights) also had his own way of finding advantages too.

                It’s just that Pacquaio achieved his advantages in other, perhaps more obscure, ways.



                Furthermore, Pacquaio did so at a time when;
                .
                Not only, there may have not been as much focus on certain nefarious and/or advantageous seeking aspects of the sport.

                But also, Pacquaio enjoyed the management/protection (not necessarily protection from opponents) that TR afforded him. Arum is very, very, savvy.





                When it is all said/done the fact that - when comparing Pacquaio and Floyd with a historical and/or revisionists mindset - Floyd easily beat Pacquaio, Pacquaio didn’t take the loss well and came out with excuse after excuse, Floyd retired undefeated, and then Floyd came back out of retirement again and beat MMA and/or the UFC’s (where the MMA and/or the UFC represent boxing’s greatest sporting/business threat to date) biggest draw . . .

                Means that (irrespective of how Conner was not a formidably elite boxing challenge for Floyd and/or how Mayeather utterly dominated the same guy that iced Manny) Floyd will almost always - particularly from a historian’s perspective - be considered above Pacquaio.



                That is, unless . .

                Pacquaio beats Floyd in a 2nd fight and/or he fights/beats one of the current young/prime welterweights (like Spence).



                None of this means I personally think;
                .
                A) Floyd is better or less than Pacquaio.


                B) The official rank/rating of McGregor (as a boxer) and how much less it was than Floyd’s when they fought, is the sole reason why the aforementioned McGregor V Mayweather fight has the above-mentioned historical significance.




                It’s just a post/comment on how I think history will view Floyd; including within the context of Pacquaio and his recent win of Thurman.

                In my opinion Floyd’s skills and also some of his achievements are sometimes overlooked and/or unappreciated, including for reasons that relate to his personal actions.



                But, Floyd - particularly as “Pretty Boy” - was easily more skilled than Pacquaio, and also Loma.

                And, yes I know there are some out there that don’t share that view (and/or like to interpret it as me claiming Loma is not talented) but to them I say (as I have for the past decade on this site and that from which it grew); show me the video evidence of Loma and/or anyone pulling off the moves Floyd did as Pretty Boy.



                Despite all the remarkable titles/weights Pacquaio has been successful in, his skills are not a patch on Floyd’s; when he was “Pretty Boy”.

                And, (just as they have for Marciano and others) these considerations will matter to credible boxing historians whom know their stuff.



                Furthermore, as stated above, Pacquaio has been knocked out cold by a guy (Marquez) that Floyd easily beat in his 1st comeback fight; albeit with a weight advantage.

                Floyd would have beat Marquez without the weight advantage.



                Furthermore, any argument that seeks to discredit Floyd’s win over Marquez as a means to elevate Pacquaio without also applying the same scrutiny/logic to how Pacquaio achieved some of his most notable wins (including those over Marquez) is - in my humble opinion - an argument that is doomed to fail right from the start.



                If present day and/or future reviews of history is not interested in how Pacquaio gained advantages (including with Cotto), my bet that future historians will not care too much that Floyd outweighed Marquez and/or (unlike Pacquaio) fought Cotto at his natural weight either.

                Not many people are walking around talking about the average age of some of Marciano’s opponents; and I suspect the reason for that is, because in hindsight all that really matters is that he successfully entertained and remained unbeaten in a division that was tough and the heaviest.



                As such, (notwithstanding both, the fact I think Pacquaio is probably one of the greatest fighters ever to live, and also my above caveats including Pacquaio beating Spence and/or Floyd in a rematch) I think history will almost always see Floyd;
                .
                A) Ahead of Pacquaio.


                B) As the cocky/brash guy that; (i) retired undefeated, (ii) had impeccable and almost unmatched skills, (iii) easily beat Pacquaio, and (iv) played with and utterly dominated the same boxer (Marquez) that not only, knocked Pacquaio out cold - but also, gave (a possibly juiced up) Pacquaio absolute hell over a wonderfully entertaining trilogy spanning several years.





                Cheers,

                Storm.

                I think your argument is well stated and I think it goes without stating that this is splitting hairs either way.

                My perspective is that Floyd is the better fighter and I would argue that it is not that close. Floyd was as fast, if not faster, was miles better defensively, and could be as dangerous offensively, but chose not to be. If you look at early Floyd, he was a pretty adept puncher.

                However, when looking at their list of scalps and examining them, Pacquiao comes out on the better side to me.

                Floyd fought one prime fighter at their weight..........................Chico Corrales. Floyd destroyed him and reflecting on that fight actually bothers me. It gives me pause because it showed how good he could be against the best when they were at their best. If you look at Floyd's list of names, it looks impressive at first. But upon further inspection, it shows that all of Floyd's fight were either at a significant advantage or against someone shopworn which was the case most of the time:

                Marquez: Move up two classes
                Cotto: After tough fights with Zab, Clottey, Margarito, Pac, and Shane
                Shane: After tough fights with Cotto and 4 losses at 154. He could have fought 2005-2006 Shane, instead he fought 2010 Shane
                Pac: Fought him at least three years after his prime and after Marquez turned out his lights
                Canelo: Completely unproven, did not have a significant win
                De La Hoya: Beaten by Trinidad, Shane twice, and had his liver removed against Bhop

                I would also say that Floyd missed a lot of fights with some really good fighters that could have been made with Casamayor, Paul Williams, Kosta Tszyu, and early Margarito who approached him at a conference and Floyd told him they would make it happen. They never did. I do think his extreme and lengthy distaste for Arum proliferated this, but nonetheless, the fights didn't happen.

                The rest of of his "notable" wins are against people who the second they got in the ring with a B fighter, they got beat.

                Now it can be said that Pac walked a few guys in there that had some laps on them. However Pac fought Marquez twice in his prime, undefeated Thurman, undefeated Bradley, and an undefeated Ledwaba(he all but ended his career), and a still good Morales whom defeated him but he twice avenged shortly thereafter.

                With that in mind, I don't think anyone can call you wrong, but I think there is a strong case to be made on the opposite side.


                Last edited by The Good Doctor; 07-23-2019, 06:04 PM.

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by The Good Doctor View Post

                  I think your argument is well stated and I think it goes without stating that this is splitting hairs either way.

                  My perspective is that Floyd is the better fighter and I would argue that it is not that close. Floyd was as fast, if not faster, was miles better defensively, and could be as dangerous offensively, but chose not to be. If you look at early Floyd, he was a pretty adept puncher.

                  However, when looking at their list of scalps and examining them, Pacquiao comes out on the better side to me.

                  Floyd fought one prime fighter at their weight..........................Chico Corrales. Floyd destroyed him and reflecting on that fight actually bothers me. It gives me pause because it showed how good he could be against the best when they were at their best. If you look at Floyd's list of names, it looks impressive at first. But upon further inspection, it shows that all of Floyd's fight were either at a significant advantage or against someone shopworn which was the case most of the time:

                  Marquez: Move up two classes
                  Cotto: After tough fights with Zab, Clottey, Margarito, Pac, and Shane
                  Shane: After tough fights with Cotto and 4 losses at 154. He could have fought 2005-2006 Shane, instead he fought 2010 Shane
                  Pac: Fought him at least three years after his prime and after Marquez turned out his lights
                  Canelo: Completely unproven, did not have a significant win
                  De La Hoya: Beaten by Trinidad, Shane twice, and had his liver removed against Bhop

                  I would also say that Floyd missed a lot of fights with some really good fighters that could have been made with Casamayor, Paul Williams, Kosta Tszyu, and early Margarito who approached him at a conference and Floyd told him they would make it happen. They never did. I do think his extreme and lengthy distaste for Arum proliferated this, but nonetheless, the fights didn't happen.

                  The rest of of his "notable" wins are against people who the second they got in the ring with a B fighter, they got beat.

                  Now it can be said that Pac walked a few guys in there that had some laps on them. However Pac fought Marquez twice in his prime, undefeated Thurman, undefeated Bradley, and an undefeated Ledwaba(he all but ended his career), and a still good Morales whom defeated him but he twice avenged shortly thereafter.

                  With that in mind, I don't think anyone can call you wrong, but I think there is a strong case to be made on the opposite side.

                  You make some good/interesting points there TGD.

                  Not sure about the claim Floyd fought only 1 prime fighter (Corrales) at their weight, though.



                  As, putting aside;
                  .
                  A) Chavez, Juuko, and Sosa.


                  B) And also the opponents that either offered themselves to Floyd at a slight weight disadvantage in order to make the money/fight and/or themselves had made a career out of making other fighters starve down to weight (such as Alvarez and Pacquaio).


                  C) The fighters Floyd fought at their weight when both Floyd and them were past their prime; such as Cotto.
                  .
                  Not only, did Floyd fight Cotto at his natural weight and at a time when Floyd himself had also experienced many tough fights (as you state Cotto did) beforehand - but also, Mayweather did so with the psychological disadvantage of going into his fight with Cotto whilst knowing his incarceration was delayed until just after that fight.
                  .
                  Think what you will about the reason/genesis of Floyd’s pending incarceration, the psychological disadvantage it presented to wining must have surely been significant and at least the equal to any disadvantage Cotto had as a result of previous losses and/or tough fights.

                  Notwithstanding what I have said above about Floyd (with respect to himself also experiencing many tough fights before he boxed Cotto); I agree that Cotto’s fights with Pacquaio and Margarito were tough - but we all know the real reasons why that was.
                  .

                  D) The fighters that Floyd fought in their prime and at their weight that Floyd fought when he was past his prime; such as Maidana, Ortiz, and (*possibly) Hatton, etc.



                  It can still be seen from my aforementioned list (above post #9) of spectacular Floyd fights, that Castillo is mentioned.

                  Castillo was in his prime and at his weight when Floyd (moved up in weight and) fought him.



                  There are others, but I get your point - just as you mine.



                  History will almost always see Floyd as (i) the guy that shut down the guy that iced Pacquaio, and (ii) the guy that beat Pacquaio.

                  No matter what Pacquaio does.



                  Aside from that already listed in previous posts; there are several other reasons for this.

                  One is due to how boxing victory/loss results persist in the mind, history books, and also through time far, far, longer than obtaining a clear/reliable consensus agreement on the sneaky/other ways that might have been embraced in order to achieve them.



                  Furthermore, as soon as anyone starts to bring the ancillary considerations up pertaining to the real/imagined advantages associated with how some “interesting” boxing contests were won, the same almost always can be done to the opponent the fighter is being compared to.

                  And, in the case of Floyd, that is Pacquaio, and vice versa; and (like Floyd) we all know Pacquaio’s closet is certainly not without skeletons.



                  As, (despite all the argy bargy Floyd may have played during contract negotiations and opponent selection; particularly as “Money Mayweather”) the fact remains that Pacquaio fought/beat so many guys, not only whilst radically juiced up - but also, whilst they were at a really noticeable weight disadvantage.

                  That consideration is not even contentious among those that understand the sport and benefits of blood doping.



                  What other reason could possibly exist for the stark contrast between Pacquaio’s performances against Keith Thurman, and Jeff Horn (in a tightly bordered controlled country where Pacquaio has no significant network/base).

                  Not in the least as the Thurman fight took place after the Horn fight, when Pacquaio was even older (but in a country where Pacquaio does have a significant network/base), and against a fighter that is clearly better than Horn.

                  And Pacquaio is in his 40's.



                  I'm not saying it’s right/fair; or even that Floyd is an angel and beyond reproach.

                  More, it’s just that history will see Floyd over Pacquaio unless Pacquaio wins a rematch with Floyd and/or he has a sensational win over Spence; whom is walking around looking like a light heavyweight and himself not entirely without the facilities Pacquaio has familiarized himself with.





                  Cheers,

                  Storm.







                  *Hatton fought Collazo at welterweight prior to fighting Mayweather; even though Matthew went back to junior welterweight in between the Collazo and Mayweather fights.
                   

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Interesting points here men. I think it's being understated here that Manny brought a debilitating shoulder injury into the Mayweather fight in order to ensure his getting paid (take the money and run) but also as a ready made (if rarely used) excuse for why he lost. Also I don't think that Errol Spence is any threat to hurt/maim/retire Pacquiao. In fact, given Manny's masterclass showing against Thurman, it's time to start seeing all of these top welterweights as good but lacking the elite experience and quality of opposition needed to beat a rejuvenated Manny. I don't know if Floyd will answer Manny's tweets for a rematch but if Pac-Spence goes down I like the chances of Alpha Dog Manny to administer a boxing lesson to that hungry pup.

                    Comment


                    • Kid Blast
                      Kid Blast commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Hmmmmmmmm. I think Spence would catch him by the ropes and end the thing once and for all with body work. Thurman was overrated and beating him, while satisfying, was no big thing except to Pinoys. And if he fought Crawford, it would be an ugly ending for the legend.

                  • #13
                    I'm not buying it Bull.

                    Pac-Spence ain't no Tszyu-Chavez or Joppy-Duran.

                    If Manny "upsets" Spence, Crawford still kills him?

                    Comment


                    • Kid Blast
                      Kid Blast commented
                      Editing a comment
                      yes..............................

                  • #14
                    Provided he can get down to and make welterweight without *destroying himself . . .

                    Spence walks through Pacquaio; and hurts him.



                    Remember (against Pacquaio) Broner fared almost as good as - if not better than - Thurman.

                    Pacquaio could not put Adrien away.



                    Broner has a good defence, and he hits hard.

                    And, even aside from the fact that he has already touched him up in the gym without any witnessed/planned payback; Spence would really hurt Broner in a real fight.



                    Spence is not on the same level as some of yesteryear’s great boxers, but he’s probably the best welterweight out there right now.

                    He was playing with Mikey and could have easily got him out of there if he wanted (and if Haymon was not so high on Garcia).



                    As good as Pacquaio and his last achievement/fight is; no-one that can easily dog it out with the Charlo brothers (as Spence has on many occasions) in the gym and/or other competent middleweights is going to be bothered by a short 40 year old.

                    Even if it is Pacquaio.



                    Juiced or not.



                    There are limits to what certain weights can achieve.

                    If Pacquaio is not putting Broner/Thurman away, then he’s certainly not beating on Spence.



                    Spence would destroy Thurman.

                    I believe that it’s one of the main reasons Thurman has played his injuries out for so long.



                    I'm not even sure Crawford is strong enough to beat Spence.

                    And, Terrance probably beats (this version of) Pacquaio.



                    Notwithstanding my above *caveats; by the time the fight night arrived (for any Pacquaio V Spence fight) Errol would practically be a middleweight walking into the ring whom was much taller/stronger than Pacquaio.

                    Furthermore, Spence is also a southpaw and he also possesses fast hands and excellent stamina too.

                    How is Pacquaio going to hurt Spence; if the Charlo brothers can't?

                    It would be too much for Pacquaio.

                    Not at 40.



                    I have heard some stories about Spence really beating on some of the prime middleweight fighters out there at the moment in gym wars/spars.



                    And if Pacquaio was juiced, then the same opportunity might just be utilized by Spence too.

                    Avoiding testers and microdosing is not a unique art.



                    Anyway, that’s my 2 cents worth and Pacquaio V Spence.





                    Cheers,

                    Storm.

                    Comment


                    • Kid Blast
                      Kid Blast commented
                      Editing a comment
                      The only thing I challenge is whether Spence could beat Crawford.. I think Crawford is too ring savvy for that to happen but it would be a mega-fight.

                  • #15
                    Crawford or Spence would have Pacquiao's arse.

                    Stormcentre bringing up Hagler vs Leonard is a sore point for me. I can't dispute Leonard's status as a complete fighter, or his having beaten the other 3 kings, but give me Hagler any day.

                    Comment


                    • Kid Blast
                      Kid Blast commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Crawford or Spence would have Pacquiao's arse. Indeed!
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