Boxing’s Best P4P in a Snapshot in Time

Oh yes, is there any list out there that has Usyk over Loma. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Out of all of them, here is the best that Usyk can come up with: "Usyk, a darling of hard-core fans, has yet to make the same crossover splash as his former Ukranian Olympic teammate Vasiliy Lomachenko but he's beginning to catch up to his training partner in terms of P4P recognition".

Res ipsa loquitur. Res Judicata.
 
Kid Blast said:
This is also for Storm.

That's a good list, Jeffrey. And I believe you could defend it pretty well. You have everyone I have-- I believe-- but in a different order. Generally, the difference between these guys is pretty thin. I see you have Usyk 8th while I have him 5th. I am no longer doubtful of him and think is a marvelous talent but I think Loma does some things that Usyk can't do just yet. nor can fellow-Uke Oleksandr Gvozdyk. One is pivoting and then unleashing volleys and then pivoting again. Almost like a figure skater with a nasty disposition. He also figures out his opponents quickly, makes a fast adjustment, and then closes the show concussively. , The way he came back at Linares (no slouch) was amazing. Loma dazzles, Usyk doesn't' IMO. But is strongly suspect we will see more of a dazzle from Usyk soon, Remember, this is today. Oh yes, the Salido fight was a dirty one that the referee allowed. Over weight, Rabbit punches, and he was seconds from being waxed.

When Loma fought Thai Suriya Tatakhun in 2014 in Macao, the Thai was 51-1. Loma was 2-1. Loma won by scores of 107-120 (thrice) Chonlatarn was down once in 4th after which Loma hurt one of his hands and fought the remaining 8 rounds with one hand and had the HBO Team hypnotized. Max almost popped. Loma did everything but KO the guy---with one hand. That's what I mean by him being unique.

As for fighting at his opponent's home, I believe Loma fights at neutral locations. home, Like MSG and in Nevada and Cal. That's where the money is and that's why he makes far more than his fellow Ukrainian who until recently fought most of his bouts in Kiev. .Loma also fight at the appropriate weight and is counseled by an incredibly savvy TEAM. The difference between my top 5 is razor thin but I kind of like the way it looks.
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Your list is not bad Ted.

But, provided it is not purely subjective, there are some issues with it.



For most pound for pound lists to rate 1 fighter from 1 division truly above another within a separate division (particularly in order to justify applying subjectivity that places them even further ahead) they usually must have comparable tangible achievements.

Yet Loma doesn’t even half of the unified world title achievements Usyk does - even if he wins his next fight.



Based on the above criteria (and the fact that currently Loma only has ¼ of world title achievements Usyk does) the pound for pound list is erroneous in its placement of Loma and Usyk.

Remember, the list claims to be a current snapshot.



Therefore (based on the above criteria), since - currently - Loma only has ¼ of world title achievements Usyk does, the pound for pound list is erroneous in its placement of Loma and Usyk.

Unless, of course, the subjective element of Ted’s pound for pound list is so great that it simply swamps the objective and real achievements criteria that usually applies to most pound for pound lists so much that we can - subjectively - say Loma is 4 times better than Usyk so much so that it outweighs the facts that;
.
A) Currently Loma has only 1 world title; and Usyk has supremely unified all 3 in his division.


B) Currently Loma has a loss on his record; whilst Usyk doesn’t.


C) *It is (physiologically) much, much, harder for the bigger/heavier guys to perform similar to the way Loma does; which is yet another aspect that any pound for pound list rating Loma ahead of Usyk overlooks.​



So, even aside from the fact that Usyk goes to his opponents backyard and defeats them as he unifies his titles and is looking like he may be the next Holyfield, any pound for pound list that applies a sane degree/ratio of subjectivity/objectivity that claims to provide a current snapshot of all fighters must also to some extent come to the conclusion that;
.
A) Loma can't be placed ahead of Usyk based on Loma’s current achievements; as - by any reasonable subjective/other assessment of Loma’s skills (even if they’re not *normalized for different weight divisions; see above point “C”) - Loma’s skills are simply not more than 4 times that which Usyk possesses.


B) Loma must reside on any reasonable pound for pound list below Usyk.​



As such, despite how brilliant he is, Loma only subjectively “looks” better than Usyk.

Happy to hear how - based on the above-mentioned criteria - I have it wrong.




Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
 
KO Digest said:
Usyk is 15-0, yes?

By comparison:

Holyfield had already beaten a future Hall of Famer.

Over 15 rounds.

Usyk may well get waxed by Tony Bellew.

That would render the comparison ridiculously moot.
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You love subjectivity don't you?

You left out the small fact that Usyk holds all (4 of) the belts at 15-0.

Holyfield never did that.



It wasn't until Holyfield was near his 17th fight that he held 3 unified titles; still 1 less than Usyk.

Even then the win/oss records of Evander's opponents doesn't look that flash compared to Usyk.



Therefore, what I stated above still stands; currently Usyk is beginning to look like someone that may be as good, if not better than, Holyfield.

I love Holyfield; but (even aside from his Olympic gold medal) Usyk's amateur record is miles ahead of Evander's.



Your humorous comment; Usyk "may" well get waxed by Tony Bellew.

Purely subjective wishing that provides insight into knowledge of the game.

Currently it has not happened, so you can't count it; unless of course you subjectively wish it into existence.



Anyway, hold onto that (subjective) dream/thought (Usyk "may" well get waxed by Tony Bellew) and come and see me after the fight.

No way Bellew beats Usyk.



Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
 
StormCentre said:
Your list is not bad Ted.

But, provided it is not purely subjective, there are some issues with it.



For most pound for pound lists to rate 1 fighter from 1 division truly above another within a separate division (particularly in order to justify applying subjectivity that places them even further ahead) they usually must have comparable tangible achievements.

Yet Loma doesn’t even half of the unified world title achievements Usyk does - even if he wins his next fight.



Based on the above criteria (and the fact that currently Loma only has ¼ of world title achievements Usyk does) the pound for pound list is erroneous in its placement of Loma and Usyk.

Remember, the list claims to be a current snapshot.



Therefore (based on the above criteria), since - currently - Loma only has ¼ of world title achievements Usyk does, the pound for pound list is erroneous in its placement of Loma and Usyk.

Unless, of course, the subjective element of Ted’s pound for pound list is so great that it simply swamps the objective and real achievements criteria that usually applies to most pound for pound lists so much that we can - subjectively - say Loma is 4 times better than Usyk so much so that it outweighs the facts that;
.
A) Currently Loma has only 1 world title; and Usyk has supremely unified all 3 in his division.


B) Currently Loma has a loss on his record; whilst Usyk doesn’t.


C) *It is (physiologically) much, much, harder for the bigger/heavier guys to perform similar to the way Loma does; which is yet another aspect that any pound for pound list rating Loma ahead of Usyk overlooks.​



So, even aside from the fact that Usyk goes to his opponents backyard and defeats them as he unifies his titles and is looking like he may be the next Holyfield, any pound for pound list that applies a sane degree/ratio of subjectivity/objectivity that claims to provide a current snapshot of all fighters must also to some extent come to the conclusion that;
.
A) Loma can't be placed ahead of Usyk based on Loma’s current achievements; as - by any reasonable subjective/other assessment of Loma’s skills (even if they’re not *normalized for different weight divisions; see above point “C”) - Loma’s skills are simply not more than 4 times that which Usyk possesses.


B) Loma must reside on any reasonable pound for pound list below Usyk.​



As such, despite how brilliant he is, Loma only subjectively “looks” better than Usyk.

Happy to hear how - based on the above-mentioned criteria - I have it wrong.




Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
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I think what is bothering you is that you have documented many times your affinity for Usyk. But I have listed the objective stuff I looked at above and you chose to ignore it. You harp on number of titles but Loma has held the WBA and Ring magazine lightweight titles since May 2018, and previously the WBO featherweight and junior lightweight titles between 2014 and 2018. --and as Jeffrey asserts, he has fought much better competition in neutral locations (unlike Usyk).What part of Res jJudicata don't you get? You have your opinion; I have mine. Deal with it but remember, mine is supported by every federation and rating body out there.
 
Oh yes, why not count the won-lost records of the two lists of opponents and then compare them? That doesn't meant much to me but since you seem to be into numbers as some kind of objectivity argument, have at my man.Now it's time for me to train. Bench and Dead Lifts today. I have a meet on December 1.
 
Kid Blast said:
I think what is bothering you is that you have documented many times your affinity for Usyk. But I have listed the objective stuff I looked at above and you chose to ignore it. You harp on number of titles but Loma has held the WBA and Ring magazine lightweight titles since May 2018, and previously the WBO featherweight and junior lightweight titles between 2014 and 2018. --and as Jeffrey asserts, he has fought much better competition in neutral locations (unlike Usyk).What part of Res jJudicata don't you get? You have your opinion; I have mine. Deal with it but remember, mine is supported by every federation and rating body out there.
Click to expand...


Ahh . . . .

Ted.

Please read the last sentence of my post # 17.
.
“Happy to hear how - based on the above-mentioned criteria - I have it wrong.”​



I note you have failed to explain yourself within the context of that posts' caveat.

You got triggered again. :)



Let’s (push facts to one side, and disregard how advantageously Loma set up the fights with Rigo and Walters, and) say Loma has fought better opposition.

We give that little victory to you and Jeff.



*Still, Loma only holds 1 title (Usyk has 4), and has 1 loss (Usyk has none).

*And that means, Usyk right now has achieved at least the equal of Holyfield.



Therefore, anyone placing Usyk behind Loma on a pound for pound list that applies a sane amount objectivity is effectively stating Loma - right now - despite the above *facts - is pound for pound superior to a guy that is currently equaling, if not bettering, the legendary Evander Holyfield.

Put another way, you guys are placing so much faith in subjectivity that you’re saying a guy with 1 loss and only 1 title is better than a supremely unified champion (correct term for a unified champion holding all the titles) holding all 4 titles with no losses that is currently equaling, if not bettering, the legendary Evander Holyfield.



I suggest this is why no-one in this post can objectively explain - with facts - how Loma is better within the above-mentioned constraints of my post #17.



Loma is really good; no argument there.

But it is a stretch to (effectively) state that - right now - his subjective performances are so much better than Usyk that it offsets the deficit between their real/objective accomplishments; such that Loma’s current pound for pound rating places him on par with the legendary Evander Holyfield.



I don’t care whether your views are supported by all the federations and rating bodies out there.

Half of them are full of clueless goons that (as I have shown time and time again in this forum) know far less about the sport than me.



That said, I would not argue that anything you provide/write is similar to what exists elsewhere, as it is well/truly documented how fluent you are at copying from other sites; IBF matter.

Happy to hear how - based on the above-mentioned criteria within my post #17 - I have it wrong.



Cry all you want, but based on the above-mentioned criteria and that within my post #17, Usyk is pound for pound ahead of Loma.

Aside from that error, your list is not bad.



In closing, all that is required now is for you to post your perfunctory "Lol captioned weightlifting strong man image of you flipping tractor tyres".

Please do it; I miss the laughs.



Love it.


Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
 
These P4P lists ALWAYS stir up some controversy. It's just like Ted to rattle the cages of us fight fans!

In my humble opinion, if you have Alvarez at No. 2 then GGG should be directly under him (not at No. 4!) if NOT even! Canelo received a GIFT draw in their first fight and barely squeaked by in the rematch. Hell, he's a De La Hoya fighter and, like Don King fighters, Alvarez gets the benefit of the doubt.
 
StormCentre said:
Ahh . . . .

Ted.

Please read the last sentence of my post # 17.
.
“Happy to hear how - based on the above-mentioned criteria - I have it wrong.”​



I note you have failed to explain yourself within the context of that posts' caveat.

You got triggered again. :)



Let’s (push facts to one side, and disregard how advantageously Loma set up the fights with Rigo and Walters, and) say Loma has fought better opposition.

We give that little victory to you and Jeff.



*Still, Loma only holds 1 title (Usyk has 4), and has 1 loss (Usyk has none).

*And that means, Usyk right now has achieved at least the equal of Holyfield.



Therefore, anyone placing Usyk behind Loma on a pound for pound list that applies a sane amount objectivity is effectively stating Loma - right now - despite the above *facts - is pound for pound superior to a guy that is currently equaling, if not bettering, the legendary Evander Holyfield.

Put another way, you guys are placing so much faith in subjectivity that you’re saying a guy with 1 loss and only 1 title is better than a supremely unified champion (correct term for a unified champion holding all the titles) holding all 4 titles with no losses that is currently equaling, if not bettering, the legendary Evander Holyfield.



I suggest this is why no-one in this post can objectively explain - with facts - how Loma is better within the above-mentioned constraints of my post #17.



Loma is really good; no argument there.

But it is a stretch to (effectively) state that - right now - his subjective performances are so much better than Usyk that it offsets the deficit between their real/objective accomplishments; such that Loma’s current pound for pound rating places him on par with the legendary Evander Holyfield.



I don’t care whether your views are supported by all the federations and rating bodies out there.

Half of them are full of clueless goons that (as I have shown time and time again in this forum) know far less about the sport than me.



That said, I would not argue that anything you provide/write is similar to what exists elsewhere, as it is well/truly documented how fluent you are at copying from other sites; IBF matter.

Happy to hear how - based on the above-mentioned criteria within my post #17 - I have it wrong.



Cry all you want, but based on the above-mentioned criteria and that within my post #17, Usyk is pound for pound ahead of Loma.

Aside from that error, your list is not bad.



In closing, all that is required now is for you to post your perfunctory "Lol captioned weightlifting strong man image of you flipping tractor tyres".

Please do it; I miss the laughs.



Love it.


Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
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