Lomachenko and Garcia: Lightning and Thunder

Good stuff here Ted. I would love to to Loma-Garcia but that probably is years away. Loma is a special once in a generation type fighter and literally willing to fight anyone. Of course, not a lot of fighters are as willing as he to face him. But he is active and hopefully someone we get to enjoy for years.
 
oubobcat said:
Good stuff here Ted. I would love to to Loma-Garcia but that probably is years away. Loma is a special once in a generation type fighter and literally willing to fight anyone. Of course, not a lot of fighters are as willing as he to face him. But he is active and hopefully someone we get to enjoy for years.
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Thanks Matt. Much appreciated. And I agree 100%.
 
Some--perhaps many--are making a “big thing” about the knockdown. But there is another twist to it and that is that if Linares had planted that counter-right on just about anyone else, he might well have waxed them. Linares has power. Loma treated it as a shock-flash-knockdown. The point is that Loma has a rock solid chin.

Oh yes, when Mikey got dropped by Rocky Martinez, he was hurt.

As for comparisons, Orlando Canizales comes to mind (55-5). He was a master of movement but did not have the dance training that Loma had when he was young. Loma is just faster afoot than others.
 
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StormCentre said:
If you read my last sentence I allow for Toney being dropped.

I was pretty sure it happened sometime; just couldn’t remember at the time.



Still, Loma has a way to go before meeting the Toney-criteria a marked out in my post #17.

For instance, Peter was by no means Toney’s first;
.
A) Opponent when Toney moved up in weight to another division.


B) First heavyweight fight.​




Whereas Linares was Loma’s first significant step up in weight and he got dropped.

Loma was in peak condition for Linares, and I doubt anyone knowledgeable would say Toney ever was after his middleweight days.



Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
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He was also dropped by Reggie Johnson I believe and , of course, Roy Jones. JR decked him. Toney has taken too many head shots and is a candidate for PD down the road. He already slurs badly, but to his credit, he smokes cigars.
 
Lord knows it’s taken a while.

But glad to see you (seem to have started to shed the skin that is a giveaway that most without real knowledge on the sport have, and recently shown that you) seem to be able to debate a subject without getting too emotional.

Good stuff.

Keep it up.



No argument from me that Toney has probably taken too many head shots.

Not sure Jones decked Toney.

I think Jones knocked James back when they were both showboating, but James stumbled back into the corner ropes.



Toney's skills and ability to fight in any condition place him in a special category that not many people (Loma included) will occupy.

He is truly Old Skool.

I know of no-one in this sport that has both, the confidence and ability to back it up, as they fight out of shape (like James does) and still perform at the top level whilst in a weight division (or 2) higher than he really should be.

James was seriously weight drained for his Jones fight, and whilst Roy re-matched Hopkins he wanted no part of James later on; and I don't blame him.

Toney would have busted (big time) up the version of Jones post Balco.



And, yes, I was pretty sure James was dropped a few more times than Peters.

But then, the wars he’s had and the lacksidaisical approach to them he’s taken ensures there will not be too many people in the near future emulating some of Toney’s greater achievements; Loma included.

This sport is hard enough if you’re well prepared, fit and just completed a 3 month camp.

Let alone if you just pull yourself off the seat at Taco Bell and rock up.




Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
 
Plus, he starred as Joe Frazier in “Ali”

Nuff said.



If ever there was the living (next era) embodiment of Frazier is surely would be Toney.

There were even some similarities in their styles.



My understanding is the Joe’s family - when asked by the producers of "Ali" - had no problems with James Toney being picked to play “Smoking Joe”.

Nuff said on that too.



Toney is a legend.

Hands down; in boxing.

Dude (out of shape and with practically no experience/idea about Judo, BJJ, and wrestling) crossed over to UFC and still took on one of the former bests there.

Didn't care about all the risks/negatives, because he believed in his hands.

And, even though he lost, Couture made sure it was not a stand up fight.


Didn't bother James, he just kept boxing.




Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
 
But in terms of comparing him to Loma, I can see similarities but watch a prime Camacho or Canizales and that's where it gets close. Comparing Toney to Loma is like comparing a cantaloupe to a kiwi. Sure, a prime Toney was lighter but his weight varied and went up like a Tesla rocket. Toney was a model of muscle memory.
 
I'm a sucker for anyone with the lead hand held low and/or out because it can be so deceiving, and lead to heaps of offensive or defensive advantages. Some examples of not keeping it high and tight are Rigondeaux, Burley, of course Tszyu.

Toney would more often than not have his lead hand by the hip, even right in the pocket. Between his head/ upper body movement, and his lead arm covering him, he was very hard to hit clean. There's a video of him sparring with McClellan at Kronk. He shows that elusiveness coupled with aggression - lead hand rips and hooks to the head.

Now I think of it, the hardest guy to hit in my gym often had his lead hand very low and used just enough head movement to slip. The guy never made any excessive move. Always one step, pivot, bob or slip, and one or two crisp shots at the right time. Other guys moved faster, had tighter looking guard, but this guy was easily best at hitting more than getting hit.
 
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Vargas (Fernando) used to be a pretty good amateur.

Good pro too.



Both as a pro and amateur I remember he had this move . . .

He would jab, sometimes a few times, and slowly move forward with each jab.

Sometimes he’d just ever so slightly lurch forward after a single jab; making his opponent think he hadn’t quite got his range adjusted yet.



Sometimes he’d kind of go low with the jab but seem to miss; so no foul.

Each time making his opponent think he hadn’t quite got his range adjusted yet.



Then, he’d repeat this and just as he was in front of his opponent and leaned over/forward (seemingly in a vulnerable position; but once again his opponent simply thought Vargas hadn’t quite got his range adjusted yet) he’d rotate his upper body clockwise and deliver the most beautiful sucker uppercut.

It was as devastating as it was cleve and spectacular.

He had that move down pat.



Back in 2011 he tried it on me a few times sparring in Oxnard.

If you look at his fight with, Ike Quartey (I think), I believe he does it on him.


Like Kostya Tszyu’s fully extended left hand (sitting below the horizontal line of the opponent’s chin; seemingly doing nothing) just being raised up quickly with a slight move forward, in order to perform a hybrid uppercut/jab; it’s a beautiful move.



Toney in his middleweight days though; no-one fought on the inside like him.

So many tricks.

Simply awesome.




Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
 
SuperLight said:
I'm a sucker for anyone with the lead hand held low and/or out because it can be so deceiving, and lead to heaps of offensive or defensive advantages. Some examples of not keeping it high and tight are Rigondeaux, Burley, of course Tszyu.

Toney would more often than not have his lead hand by the hip, even right in the pocket. Between his head/ upper body movement, and his lead arm covering him, he was very hard to hit clean. There's a video of him sparring with McClellan at Kronk. He shows that elusiveness coupled with aggression - lead hand rips and hooks to the head.

Now I think of it, the hardest guy to hit in my gym often had his lead hand very low and used just enough head movement to slip. The guy never made any excessive move. Always one step, pivot, bob or slip, and one or two crisp shots at the right time. Other guys moved faster, had tighter looking guard, but this guy was easily best at hitting more than getting hit.
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Well, Mayweather's lead right was his MONEY punch
 
StormCentre said:
Vargas (Fernando) used to be a pretty good amateur.

Good pro too.



Both as a pro and amateur I remember he had this move . . .

He would jab, sometimes a few times, and slowly move forward with each jab.

Sometimes he’d just ever so slightly lurch forward after a single jab; making his opponent think he hadn’t quite got his range adjusted yet.



Sometimes he’d kind of go low with the jab but seem to miss; so no foul.

Each time making his opponent think he hadn’t quite got his range adjusted yet.



Then, he’d repeat this and just as he was in front of his opponent and leaned over/forward (seemingly in a vulnerable position; but once again his opponent simply thought Vargas hadn’t quite got his range adjusted yet) he’d rotate his upper body clockwise and deliver the most beautiful sucker uppercut.

It was as devastating as it was cleve and spectacular.

He had that move down pat.



Back in 2011 he tried it on me a few times sparring in Oxnard.

If you look at his fight with, Ike Quartey (I think), I believe he does it on him.


Like Kostya Tszyu’s fully extended left hand (sitting below the horizontal line of the opponent’s chin; seemingly doing nothing) just being raised up quickly with a slight move forward, in order to perform a hybrid uppercut/jab; it’s a beautiful move.



Toney in his middleweight days though; no-one fought on the inside like him.

So many tricks.

Simply awesome.




Cheers,

Storm.

:) :)
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In his Middleweight days, yes. He was the master of close-in stuff. Neat and short stuff that snap heads back and eventually turn the fight. Watch Garby.
 
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